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Douglas Bodde's avatar

Perfect elucidation of the problem--the "Great Tradition" is not an ecclesiastical body and can't serve as a reference point for these pastors. They may refer to the history of the Church of England or our confessions and most certainly to holy scripture--but not this amorphous idea. The Great Tradition is a wonderful gift to be pursued wholeheartedly--but it doesn't resolve church disputes. The tone with these pastors also resembles the Puritans who Hooker eventually had to oppose because of their overly-righteous assurance of correctness.

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Alex Wilgus's avatar

As a working priest, and definitely not a Medievalist, I won’t be able to do a detailed response for a little while at least, and I haven’t heard of the book you cite, but can I ask a few questions about it? First, are the list of texts in your article the primary ones he treats of? There are much longer catenae out there, available even on a simple Google search, of very early references to women in a priestly roles, and much more direct in their prohibitions than the ones cited. Obviously each of these deserve more detailed treatment than just cherry picked quotations, but it strikes me that there are a great deal more out there, and much less “problematic” to the anti-WO position.

Second, how has the book been received in the discipline? My cursory opinion of it based on your summary alone (also the link to the 7 page summary you reference appears not to point to it?) is that, at the very least, the claims he makes—flattening out the meaning of ordination to white out any distinction between those ‘ordained’ to perform sacramental rites and those ‘ordained’ to the ladder of other clerical orders that were formalized in the Middle Ages, that the 4th Lateran amounted to, not a reformation, but a revolutionary suppression of a perfectly ordinary and widespread practice of women celebrating at church altars—would be a narrative pretty far outside the mainstream of histories of the medieval church, even by secular and feminist accounts, who are often content to count the Church as just part of the scaffolding of the great edifice of Western patriarchy from its very earliest days. But it’s been several years since I was in an academic history department, so maybe there’s an emerging consensus I haven’t considered?

For instance, here is an episode we did, spelling out what I would consider the standard narrative of the five clerical orders, which assumes that the distinction between the two holy orders, which are authorized to handle the sacraments, and the other five were not invented in the 12th Century.

https://wordandtable.simplecast.com/episodes/clerical-orders

Lastly, I think your post provides a good opportunity to do a follow up on the meanings of some of the passwords that Anglicans with a Catholic sensibility throw around: ‘patristic consensus,’ ‘Great Tradition’ and the like, so thanks for calling these out. These are my primary interests, so look for a follow up primarily on that score. I’ll let the medievalists among us respond to the Macy book. But here is a post, aimed at a completely different controversy that lays out some of the basic assumptions behind how we would answer the questions you ask. See esp. the section “A Unity of Faith”

https://northamanglican.com/anglican-catholicism-and-its-critics/

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